Do’s and Don’ts for Successfully Using Podcasts for Marketing – with Dave Jackson

By Veronica Barkley
Do’s and Don’ts for Successfully Using Podcasts for Marketing – with Dave Jackson

Welcome to the Ecommerce Marketing Podcast everyone. I am your host, Arlen Robinson, and today we have a very special guest, Dave Jackson who is the founder of the School of Podcasting, a featured speaker, consultant and author of the book Profit From Your Podcast. Dave started podcasting in 2005 and has over 2.6 million downloads of his School of podcasting show, and in 2018 was inducted into the Academy of Podcasters Hall of Fame. Welcome to the podcast, Dave.

Oh, glad to be here.

Looking forward to it.

Yes, definitely. And I’m excited because, believe it or not, even though, of course, I have a podcast, I’ve never really talked to somebody specifically about podcasting. It’s come up, of course, on this podcast. Of course, all of our listeners know that we’re talking about ecommerce marketing strategies, and it’s come up because as you and I know and I think our listeners, though, podcasting is huge and it can be a huge promotional channel for ecommerce businesses. And that’s kind of what we’re going to be talking about.

always say a lot of people want to make podcasting your business. And I go, It’s not your business. It’s your business card.

Yeah, exactly. It’s just a way to announce your business, a way to kind of pull people and drive people to what it is that you’re selling. And that’s a perfect answer. But, yeah, before we get into all that, before we dive deep into podcasting one on one, so to speak, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about your background and specifically how you got into what you’re doing today?

Yeah. My background is for about 20 years, I was a corporate trainer, which means I taught a lot of Microsoft Office, a lot of QuickBooks time management, customer service, that kind of stuff. And I saw the writing on the wall. The one day a student of mine asked me, I was teaching an Excel class, and he said, if you ever use those two features together, and I did the teacher thing, I said, hey, let’s write that on the board. We’ll talk about it on break. And I wrote it on the board.

And he asked his phone and got an answer. And I went, okay, all right. I’m going to get replaced by phone and pretty much did. And so when I got laid off from that job, I’d been podcasting for ten years, and I knew some people at a company. I said, hey, here’s the bad news. I just lost my job. The good news is I’m available to work for you. And that company is Libson. They’re a podcast media hosting company. And so I’m still kind of doing teaching it’s just more via the tech support email kind of thing at this point.

But it will be six years next month. And I love it because it gives me a wide range of what’s going on in the podcasting space. But that’s kind of how I got I started off as a hobby, and we just like, podcasting is going up and teaching Microsoft Offices. Everybody now is born with a mouse in their hand. They don’t need that stuff, right? They watch YouTube for free. So that’s how I ended up in podcasting.

kay.

Awesome.

Thank you for sharing that. And the listeners that don’t know yet Lipson is a huge hosting platform for podcasts. We actually use it here on the Ecommerce Marketing podcast. And we really have since its inception. And yeah, it’s worked well for us. And no complaints. There so awesome to hear that you’re with those guys.

Yeah. It was just a case where I started using them back in 2005. That’s when I started my podcast. And that’s when everything on the Internet was saying membership sites are going to be huge. And then I discovered podcasting. And I was like, what if I put podcasting into a membership site? And so that’s how the school of podcasting was born.

That’s awesome. Great story. Thank you for sharing that. And I think one of the main questions that we really kind of alluded to when you describe really what the podcast is for is like you said, it’s really kind of a business card per se for your business, for your product or services. It provides that level of visibility. And so I think the main thing ecommerce business owners really want to really know is, what’s the bottom line, how do you really monetize a podcast? And how do you really use it to really generate warm leads instead of just really kind of cold leads from some other types of advertising?

What is that process.

Like those questions that you just answer 15 times a day and you try to do with a smile on your face. But in your head you’re going off. I have to answer this one more time. Those make great episodes. So all those top ten things that you get asked every make those your first episodes. And what’s great about it is when somebody asks, you like, mine. And again, I don’t really mind answering this, but somebody goes, like, What’s the best microphone for, like, under $100. I hear that all the time.

And I will say it was a Samsung Q two U. And here’s a link. But I also say, if you want to hear it, I talk about this in this episode about this exact subject. So what they do is they go over there and they listen to the episode about cheap microphones. But they also see there’s one here about media hosting. And how do I launch and all those questions that they ask all the time? So what happens then is like, oh, this is kind of cool.

And they click on that and everything’s cool. But then when they come back, they’re not asking 101 questions anymore. They’ve already been educated. Plus they kind of feel like they know you because you’ve been in their ears for a couple of hours. And so when they come back, they’re like, Well, I want to do such and such, and that’s when you’re like, oh, well, it turns out I have a product for that. And that’s where it comes in. I think my favorite example of this is I have a phone number on my website, and occasionally I will actually answer that instead of letting it go to voicemail.

And so I pick it up. And I’m like, hey, this is Dave. And he’s like, Dave Jackson. And I’m like, he goes for real. And I go, yeah, he’s like, wow, you answer your phone. I go, yeah, occasionally I just want to let you know I’m driving from Minnesota to Georgia, and I’ve listened about five episodes of yours, and I’m going to tell you, I don’t know what I’m going to podcast about, but you’re my guy. And I was like, Well, there you go. I’m glad to hear that.

You know where to find me, et cetera. So when you can deliver on some sort of regular schedule, then you are seen as reliable. And you also become kind of part of the routine. And then if you deliver some sort of value, whether it’s answering questions or insights on your industry, it kind of depends on why am I starting the podcast? Am I just trying to get people to understand my software or my product, or am I trying to position myself as a leader and things like that?

But when you kind of deliver value, and then I always say, if you can make a point by sharing a story about your life, then they get to know you a little bit and so when you say, oh, I got a new book or I got a new product or whatever’s going on, they know, like, and trust you and their wallet starts to turn on fire and they got to pull it out and start using it.

Yeah, that is so true. And then, like you said, and I’ve heard this time and time again, stories sell. And what better way to deliver a story about your life, how it relates to what it is that you do, your company, your products and your service. What better way to deliver that? Then through podcast through just audio. It’s a great way to establish that rapport.

That’s it. It opens up a conversation quickly. When Muhammad Ali died, I was a huge Muhammad Ali fan growing up. I mean, that guy was just champ forever. And then when I investigated all the other things he did and how he stood up for himself. But think about it one of a kind. There’s nobody like that guy. He’s just dropping sound bites before sound bites were cool. And I said, this is what podcasters can learn from this guy. So I was still talking about podcasting. But I was talking about my love of Muhammad Ali, and I had so many people reach out like, hey, he was my champ, too, because I did that episode right after he died.

So that’s an example of I was explaining the benefits of podcasting. I was explaining marketing strategies in that case. And then I was also sharing a little bit about myself. And I was amazed at how many people are like, oh, dude, he was my champ, too. And then you’ve got one of your target customers right there. And you’re like, hey, thanks so much for listening. Blah, blah, blah. Did you have any questions I can help you with or tell me about your podcast and you just start that conversation.

And it’s that relationship that you actually are then going to capitalize on.

Yeah, definitely. That’s what it really is. It’s part of the regularity, like you said, also, is something that can engage people where they absorb some of your content. They know when to expect it. And the thing is like you said, you talk to the gentleman when you answered the phone. He was driving from Minnesota to Georgia, and that’s the beauty of it. You can be in a car. You can be anywhere, anywhere you get audio no matter what it is you’re doing. And people can digest it.

Virtually any type of device where you can stream it. And that’s part of the power as well. They don’t have to have a whole set up a whole big production just to listen to it, which is a great power. I’m also one of the really kind of go back to what you mentioned about the content forward. And you said something really awesome and that I hadn’t heard someone explain it quite simply when you said all of those annoying questions that you get that you’re so tired of answering those top ten questions, turn that into a podcast.

It is that easy because I talk to business owners all the time and they’re like, yeah, no, I should do a podcast, but I don’t know what to talk about. What am I going to talk about? And that leaves it out plainly.

And then it could be if there are things going on in your industry, you can say, like, hey, so and so did this this week. Here’s what it means to you. And here’s what I think is going to happen. And you just kind of get to kind of strut your like, hey, I know the industry. I know what’s up. And then again, that kind of positions you as like, well, this guy really seems like she really knows what’s going on. So just kind of reposition yourself as somebody who knows what’s going on and somebody you want to work with. Yeah, definitely. For sure. Now, let’s say a business. They’ve gone ahead. They’ve got the podcast out there. It’s their audio business card, if you will. Like you mentioned. And they’re starting to get a little bit of traction with the listeners going up. Once that happens. What are some other ways to leverage the podcast, your episodes into some other marketing strategies?

Yeah. There are a ton of things. Number one, obviously, there’s always social. You can promote it that way. I actually got a book deal because of my podcast, which was kind of cool. Somebody came up and said, hey, I see you’ve done this. Would you like to write a book on Monetization? And I was like, it was funny because I already started it. And I was like, this is going to be cool. And I’m going to have a publisher, some other things that aren’t really so much downloads and stuff.

What it can do to really boost your business is I have so many people say I am talking to people I have no business talking to. And it’s because if I go to a CEO of a company that I’m trying to get their business and say, hey, can we go to coffee for, like, 20 minutes? I’m busy. You know what I mean? I get out of here. Can you bother me? But if I say, would you like to come on my podcast and share some of your knowledge with my audience?

Well, they’re going to sure. Where do I sign up? So I have a friend of mine that started a podcast, and I would ask him like, Well, how your downloads? He’s like, I guess they’re okay. And I’m like, Are you making any money with this? He’s like, I don’t know, kind of maybe. And I was like, Well, let’s go back to the wine. That’s easy. I’m talking to people. I’ve been trying to talk to you for years, and I couldn’t get past the gatekeeper, and he goes, so he’s measuring his success through his network that he’s building.

So you can really benefit in many ways. But when it comes to growing, if you can get on other people’s podcasts, which we’ve kind of done, that’s another way to promote it. And it’s little things. Like, any time I mention a piece of equipment, I will send out a tweet to my Twitter followers and say, hey, there’s a new episode. But I will always tag the manufacturer because especially if I’m talking about their equipment and I like it. So anytime there’s any kind of company involved, if they were mentioned, I’ll send out a tweet about that and then tweet them.

Because I remember Road is a company that I use some of their stuff. And when this piece of gear came out, I was like, Man, this is the best thing ever. And when you see them tweeted out to their millions of followers, you’re like, okay, I wish there was a giant, like, golden switch that you just flipped and 10,000 downloads from heaven came. It just doesn’t seem to come that way. But the other one is, if you are doing a solo show, I always say, try not to fall in what I call the YouTube trap because you watch every YouTuber.

What do they start off with? Hey, guys, what’s going on? And I say, talk to one person because it sounds stupid, but it’s a little different when you’re like, hey, thank you so much for tuning in. I’m so glad you’re here, as opposed to, hey, guys, I’m glad you’re here. Now, when I go to back when we could go to events, if I met somebody who listened to my show, they’d be like, I always feel like you’re talking to me because I am. So that’s just a little thing like that that you can do to kind of build that because when you do a solo show because I know that takes a little skill because it’s weird talking to nobody, right?

But I always just picture my target audience sitting right across the table. And I’m just talking to one person. So when you do that, you build your influence. When you do an interview show, you’re kind of building your network. So different formats have different things, but it really amounts to you have to know, why am I doing this? So that might be I want to increase my email list. I want to get more customers. I want to network things like that. And then the big one is you have to know who is your audience, because the more you know who you’re really targeting, the better the content you can create.

And that really does boil down to. Okay, now that I know who my audience is, where are the people that are not only my target audience, but don’t know me? I can tweet all day and Instagram and Facebook. Those people know I have a podcast. So I’m kind of preaching to the choir. It’s a matter of finding your target audience. Where are they that they don’t know who I am. And then it’s great. That’s where I’ll go into a Facebook group or a Reddit post or something like that.

And I don’t go over there and go, hey, start a podcast. I answer a question and kind of get them going, who is this guy that keeps coming in with these really great, super detailed answers and then click on it. I just started playing there’s an app right now that’s getting a lot of buzz called Clubhouse. Right now. It’s only available on Apple.

I just got on it myself.

There’s two things I do over there. I go over there and listen and I listen to the questions because again, those questions are going to make great episodes. But I also occasionally raise my hand and go up on stage and fill in some stuff. So it’s another one that it’s really the two keys is always deliver value. When you do open your mouth and number two take time to listen, because that’s really the key when you know what your audience needs when you deliver it, well, now here comes that value again, and they’ll come follow you and they want more.

Yeah, that’s the bottom line. I think when you’re doing these podcasts and that’s kind of part of these days winning over customers because I think a lot of it has to do with your customers understanding that your particular authority on a subject, trusting what you’re saying, believing what you’re saying and knowing that it’s coming from a legitimate space, because everyone knows that there is a ton of ecommerce companies selling whatever product you want under the sun is out there. And so in order to differentiate yourself, you have to form that connection.

You have to prove that you’re an authority on something. And then it’s a great way to win your customers over for sure.

Well, and one of the things that kind of is missing a little bit in the media today is nobody claims their sources. A lot of times it’s anonymous or it just seems like they’re just beyond opinion. And so I always tell people, especially if somebody wants to do something like a crowdfunding or a Patreon where you can have a membership site kind of thing. And I will say if you have a really engaged audience, you can expect around 3%. And people go, I was thinking more like 50%.

I’m like, no ten would be amazing. Normally, it’s around three. And so I was listening to a podcast last week. Adam Curry is the guy that actually invented podcasting. One of them, and he’s doing this podcasting 2.0 project right there in the middle. He’s like, Well, and he has a really successful show called no Agenda. And he goes, when I check, my audience is about 3% of them will give me money and I just grabbed that clip, and I was like, this is why I say that because he’s not the only person I’ve heard say that.

And so when you do that again, it kind of boost your trustworthiness. And it’s just not me spewing a bunch of opinions like, this is why I think that. And I actually had somebody email me and said that was really cool that you played that clip because I’ve always wondered where you get your information. I’m like, Well, there it is. It’s not just me. I’m not just pulling numbers out of a hat. A lot of times I’ve done the research.

Yeah, that really helps, because, like you said, there’s so many media outlets, and a lot of times you don’t know where the information is coming from. And so to be able to prove that definitely goes a long way with winning all for your customers, I think the next big question that most people are wondering is they say, okay, gone through the steps. I got my podcast for my ecommerce business. Maybe I’m just educating people about my around my products and services. I’m adding value. I am building trust and rapport.

I’ve got some traction going, how do you really know? And how do you measure the effectiveness of your podcast to know that you’re not just spinning your wheels?

There are a couple of things you can do. If you’re using WordPress for your website, there’s a really cool plugin called Pretty Link. So what you can do is make a link and only say it in your podcast. So, for instance, Jordan Harbinger is a really popular podcast, and if you go to his website, I think the link is actually like, Jordanharbinger. Com. I think it’s advertisers. But in his podcast, he says if you go to Jordanharbinger. Comdeeals and that redirects to advertisers so you can see how many people are coming through organic search and Google.

But how many people are coming from what I said because deals is not on his website, but it’s in there. So that’s one way to do that for me. I have a coupon code listener that I always tell my listeners say, if you go to schoolpodcasting. Com, use the coupon codelistener, and I never, ever put that in print. So when I see somebody use the coupon code listener and they do a lot of my audiences from the podcast, it’s probably over 60% of people that use that coupon.

So that’s a way again to go, is this working or not? So whether it’s setting up a URL or a coupon code or anything like that, that you can kind of see. All right, the only way they would know that is because I mentioned it on the podcast, and that’s what I did when I started the School of podcasting. One of the first things I did was I created a coupon code because I’m like, before I go spend a lot of time on this. I need a little proof of concept.

And after about six months, I started seeing that coupon code come in. I was like, all right, this seems to be working. So that’s a couple of ways of doing it. And then, like I said, there are email lists. What I did to grow my email list is I went into my Google Analytics, and I looked at the top ten pages that are getting traffic, and I just made lead magnets for that. And the one is the dumbest lead magnet ever. It’s a page on how do you take phone calls on a podcast, which typically I don’t even recommend because the phone sounds horrible, but it got a lot of traffic.

And at the top, it just says, Would you like a PDF of this blog post? That’s the big no bonus is like, hey, would you like this as a PDF? I’m amazed at how many people sign up for that, because I couldn’t think of any way to like, hey, for bonus content on this. Like, hey, you want this as a PDF, and sure enough, they do. And then from there they go. So there are a lot of different ways you can kind of track what you’re doing and things of that nature.

And if somebody joins the school of podcasting, I’ll say, how did you hear about me or if I bump into anybody and they’re like, Are you the podcast guy, right? I’m like, Well, how did you hear about me? It’s either on somebody else’s show or they heard my show or things like that. So a lot of different ways you can measure that.

Yeah, that’s awesome. One thing that really kind of hit home on my end. As far as using the promo codes, which, of course, you said you use, you definitely recommend using is if your ecommerce company and you have your own affiliate program or influencer program, I think the promo codes are essential because let’s say you’ve got some really high powered affiliates and influencers. And these days, these influencers affiliates, they all do a podcast, especially now, more than ever since the face to face conferences have been kind of shut down for a bit because the Copen 19, everybody’s hitting the podcast circuit, the virtual summit circuit and all of that.

And so when you’ve got these influencers and affiliates promoting your brand, of course, for their incentive, you got to make it easy for them to do it. And so if you have a promo code that you’re giving specifically to them, all they need to do is mention your brand, tell the people to use your promo code, their promo code. And then while you’ll know how they’re promoting because of the use of that and a great way to track it well.

And what’s great is with that software, you can see who your top affiliates are. And that’s where you can be kind of Proactive and go hey, thanks so much for promoting a product. We’re doing good with some conversions. Maybe we can boost a few more. What if we knock another 10% off? I’ll give you a promo code, et cetera. And now it’s a team effort.

Yeah, definitely. So there’s so much you can do with it. Now, as we get ready to wrap things up, I am always a huge advocate of looking at what other successful businesses are doing, so you can kind of glean some things from them. So you don’t mind what are some successful businesses that have podcasts and have been using them for marketing that have done well and what specific things are they doing?

I think one social media examiner is a podcast by Michael Stelzner, and he has a very popular website. But he also uses that to number one. He has a huge network, and I think sometimes he actually picks some of the speakers based on conversations they’ve had on his podcast. So he is again growing his network and he does a great job of promoting. They have a big back when we could have events. But they had social media marketing world is a giant event that I went to amazing speakers.

And he would just very subtly like, hey, so and so is going to talk today about whatever Google Analytics. And you’d have this big expert come in and just drop all sorts of knowledge. And then it’s like, oh, and if you want to hear more about this, he’s speaking at the event, and he explained again, probably a coupon code and prices are going up in two months. And so it was a nice pitch. So you got to always know Michael, but you also got to see he started Fanning the fear of missing out like, hey, if you don’t come to this event, you’re going to miss out.

So that’s one, I don’t know that they do it anymore. I know they’ve had a lot of movement in the company. Evernote used to have a podcast. That was interesting is they had the marketing guy. They had like, the it guy, the technical side. And occasionally they would have the CEO, and they would answer questions from the audience. And I know they’ve had some movement there in the team over there, but that we thought that was interesting because where else can you send in a question and have it answered by the CEO?

I was like, that was pretty cool. There are other things that companies are doing in some cases. I know Dell did a podcast about interrupters. I think I forget the exact name of the podcast, but I remember one episode was how Netflix just came in and squashed blockbuster and had one. And I remember when they were doing a story on how the next big thing to be interrupted was College and tuition and how it’s like, this is just right for somebody to come in with a new model and it’s just out of control.

But it was all about now. I can’t remember the name of the show, but I remember who did it, right, Dell. So there are things like that. I’m actually doing a podcast right now called Grow Your Community. It’s kind of an experiment. I did. And what I did is I found a product that’s all about making a community online. That’s not Facebook, because there’s a lot of, like, anti Facebook sentiment out there. So I found this product and I was like, okay, what’s the target audience for that product?

And I was like, well, they’re all trying to grow their communities. I’m like, let’s make a podcast about that. I interviewed a few people that had really thriving communities and in smack dab in the middle, you’ve got it. I’m promoting their affiliate link. So they’re not even really a sponsor. I’m just using their affiliate link, and I’m getting a few car payments out about a month. And I was like, I need to do more of this, right? It really does. Like, you have to figure out.

Okay, here’s my product. Who’s the target audience for this? What would they listen to? What can I do? How long can I hold their attention? And how can I get them to buy my product or whatever? The object of the podcast is. Yeah.

Great stuff, Dave. Just really all comes down to helping your brand awareness. If you’re an ecommerce brand, putting stuff out there, putting this podcast out. There a lot of people. I had somebody on the podcast not too long ago in the SEO space, and he talked so much about how the ranking algorithm behind the scenes of Google pays a lot of attention to not only your ranking for certain keywords, but how many direct searches people do to your brand, meaning that they go to Google and they type in Dell.

You mentioned Dell. You don’t remember the podcast, but you remember Dell, so people do that. They type in specific brand names in Google. When they’ve heard of the brand somewhere, they’ve seen it somewhere. And that direct search helps your overall ranking behind the scenes.

And the other thing that podcasting does is when you go there and let’s say you’re not a subscriber yet, you click Play and you start listening to the podcast. Now Google goes, well, that’s interesting. Every time I send somebody that website, they’re on their website for, like, eight minutes, ten minutes, whatever it is. And Google, that must be really good content. So it’s a mild way to kind of boost your SEO, and then hopefully people are then sharing it. I always tell people have a way to subscribe on your website, but also have a way to share it, because again, it’s just the more people you got pointing at your website, the better you’re going to do, the better.

Yeah, that’s the bottom line. Well, Jay, this has been awesome having you on. Like I said, I had never really talked to somebody that’s really, quote, Unquote, a podcasting expert. We’ve talked about podcast strategies before, but this is your bread and butter educating people about podcasting. And so it’s awesome. I learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well, but I would like to kind of switch gears. Here my final question, because we know that even though this is your bread and butter Man doesn’t live on podcasting alone, I know you’re into some other things.

So if you don’t mind sharing one closing fun fact with us that you think our audience would be interested to know about yourself. Fun fact.

I still play the guitar, but from about the age of 15 to about 45, I played in different bands. From everything. From when I was a teenager, I was into heavy metal. I played in a country band for a while, which I was pretty sure was one of the signs of the apocalypse, because growing up, I hated country music. But when I listened, I’m like, this is Boogie with a Twang. And then the last big band I was in was we were called The Sugar Daddies, and it was like a Blues kind of swing thing.

And that was a lot of fun. The fun part of that one was, I still don’t know why they did this. The fact that we played the Blues, but we got to open up for Blue Oyster Cult. Now this is not Blue Easter, Colton, the 70s. This is Blue Circulate in the 90s. So they’re playing like a big outdoor venue. It was still cool. It’s a couple of thousand people, but it was a lot of fun. And that fun night was great because we got booed off the stage.

They did not want to hear Mustang, Sally and some Stevie Wonder and a couple other Motown kind of stuff for a plane. They’re like, Bring up and it was raining. That was the other thing. They’re like, I’m standing in the rain. Why am I listening? And it was a fun night. And one I will never forget.</p

But, yeah.

So if you want to hear some fun guitar on occasion, I will strap one on. So that’s a fun fact.

All right.

Great.

That’s awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I’ve always been interested in actually learning to play guitar. And actually the past year. So I’ve been thinking, I may just go ahead and do it no better time than now, actually, to try to learn something. Yeah.

The hardest part is you end up with Catalyst is on your fingertips. And when you first start, you have these little dents in your fingers and it hurts. And then once you keep playing through those, it’s a piece of cake. But that’s the hard part. So anytime I ever teach somebody, if it’s a guy, I’d be like, hey, it’s going to hurt. And if it’s a female, it’s going to hurt for about the first week and you have to clip your nails. They’re like, Wait, what? You got to clip your fingernails?

They’re like, I’m out. I hear you a lot of fun.

Good to know. I appreciate you sharing that, Dave. And lastly, of course, if any of our listeners want to reach out to you and pick your brain any more about podcasting, what is the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Yeah, you can go out to schoolopodcasting. Dot com is my main site. If you are looking for more shorter stuff, you can go over to podcastconsultant. Com. It’s kind of like you have the mini version and the extended dance version of the School of Podcasting, but either one of those, you can get a hold of me, and I’d be happy to help you with a podcast.

All right.

Awesome.

Well, good stuff, Dave. Thank you for sharing that. I definitely encourage people to reach out to you. Check out your site, check out what you got going on and your podcast, of course. And thank you again for joining us today on the Ecommerce Marketing Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you for listening to the Ecommerce Marketing podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode.

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Podcast Guest Info

Dave Jackson
Founder of the School of Podcasting

By Veronica Barkley

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